Carter cornerback and running back
Q: Do you go to any Carter games?
A: Normally, three or four a year. I always catch the first one, then another toward the latter part of a season, then the playoffs.
Q: What do you do for a living?
A: Environmental specialist. I work for the city of Dallas. In 2004, we implemented an environmental plan. It's just basically to make sure chemicals don't reach the storm drains. They got a big fine and we're just trying to prevent them from getting a fine again.
What I do is inspect City of Dallas facilities to make sure they are in compliance with the environmental policy. And if there's a spill somewhere, anywhere within the city of Dallas, they'll call me and I have to go make sure it is cleaned properly and do all the paperwork.
Q: Before that?
A: Chemical reactor operator for a company called Val Spar. I've been doing chemicals for the last eight years. He worked for that company for six years. That was in Garland.
Q: Is that an occupation you picked up at TSU?
A: It's not. It's just a job that I started doing. I started liking it, it's kind of interesting, working with chemicals, see how you mix those different raw materials, you get a finished product.
Q: Did you graduate from TSU?
A: No. Since I left TSU, I've been working, that's about it. I stayed at TSU for two years. Played football both of those years.
I still had some eligibility. I just got tired of it. All my friends had already gone to college and they were working. I said, 'Well, I guess it's time for me to get a job and make my own money.
And we had a coaching change, Coach Highsmith left.
Q: Which Carter guys do you mostly keep up with?
A: Cedric Buckley. I see Anthony Allen from time to time. I see Jessie when he's in town. He's always gone, though. I see Derric a couple of times a year. He lives in Houston. Not really sure what he's doing. He works for an office supply company, I think.
I see Clifton Abraham all the time. He lives down the street.
Q: Do you watch tapes of the '88 team?
A: The only footage I have is when NFL films came and did a story about three years ago, they gave me some footage, highlights from playoff games and they gave me the entire Odessa Permian game.
They just wanted Jessie and I to hang out, watched us work out and stuff.
I've looked and looked and looked. Nobody has anything. I've talked to all the guys and no one can find any footage. Up at the high school, I've asked. Coach James actually has the same things I have.
Q: Do you think there will be a 20th reunion?
A: I look for us to. I'm hoping that'll be when I release my book.
Q: Who did you interview for the book, and why did you decide to do it?
A: I interviewed Coach James, Jessie Armstead, Robert Hall, Marcus Grant and Clifton Abraham.
I just felt like the story had to be told from our point of view. It actually started, there's a guy I've been working with for a long time for a movie script. He wanted to do a movie on it. We finally got the script done and while we're waiting, matter of fact I was doing some research at Barnes & Noble. I looked over and all those titles of the books were movies.
Q: Why does the story need to be told?
A: Even today, I can be at the barber shop or the grocery store and I hear people talking about us, most of which is incorrect.
You're like, Wow, they never turn around to look and say, 'that's him right there.'
I'm going to say 99 percent of the things that come out of people's mouth are untrue. The thing that I hear the most is people talk about how Jessie Armstead was in on the robberies when we got into trouble. I hear people say that all the time. They'll say, 'Those guys were stupid for letting him go; they let him get away.'
Q: Do you think there is still hurt in the community 20 years later?
A: That's part of our past. I'm sure there is some hurt because people heal differently. But for the most part, just look at us now, how we're living our lives today.
People always ask: How good was that team? I just tell them we were the best ever. You'll never see anything like that ever.
Q: Do you think Friday Night Lights created any misconceptions?
A: Most definitely, especially the movie. The movie had us portrayed as thugs. We were nothing like that at all. As dominant as we were on the field, it wasn't like they showed, getting crazy penalties and stuff like that.
Q: Obviously you were a central figure during the grade issue. Do you remember how you were able to play through that?
A: It was actually pretty easy for me because once I got on the football field, I was fine. I wasn't worried about the grade controversy or what people were saying in the newspapers or newscasts. Games were when I could really let it hang out and just be me.
As far as playing, that was nothing but as soon as the game was over it was back to the same thing. Reporters were nagging and asking the same question. Hanging outside your classroom. Some would even come inside your classroom. It was just crazy.
That aspect of it was because everybody was watching me. I could never just relax.
Q: How would you best summarize, what happened with the grades?
A: I was in Mr. Bates' algebra class. Our principal had something called SIP Plan, School Improvement Plan. Your grade was divided into fours. This particular teacher, he had his own way of grading and he wasn't following the plan because he didn't like the plan. He said it was crap and he's been doing it this way.
When I was figuring up my grades, I kept up with everything, I kept up with all my grades in each class. When I took in my progress reports that coach gives us on Thursday to give to the teachers, he wrote something down. I said, 'No, that's not my grade.' He said, 'Yeah, yeah. So I calculated my grade with him. He said, 'No, no, no, I don't do that. I do this.' "
I let it go. I went on about my day, but when I got home I told my dad, 'I'm having a problem with this one teacher.' My dad looked at me like, 'What? You've never come to me. You've always made A's and B's.'
The next morning, he took off work and went to school with me. Mr. Russeau was our principal. We spoke with him about it. Us three went up to the classroom. We figured up my grade and it was what I said, he was showing something totally different.
Rather than Mr. Russeau and Mr. Bates getting into it, Mr. Russeau said, 'Don't worry about it, I'm just going to put you in another class.' He went over to the counselor and he put me in Mr. Abbe's class.
That class was like two chapters ahead. Mr. Abbe said `I'll tell you what, the next two weeks just take notes. Absorb everything and take the six weeks exam.' I took my notes and made like an 88 or 89 on the six weeks exam. He said `All you needed was a 70 something. '
I thought nothing of it. Then it was time for report cards again. It was the 11th week of school then. That's when the grade controversy came out about my first report card. We were about the get our second report card.
Q: What was on your report card?
A: It was a 72.
Q: Coach James remembers that you had two grades listed on your report card.
A: No. I only had one grade listed on my report card. But after Russeau and my dad went up to the room, that's where the two grades came.
In the end, with all of that, I just happened to be the guinea pig. I got caught in the middle of a teacher not likeing what a principal was doing and I just happened to be the person who got caught in the middle.
Q: That was probably a lot to sort through, being a 17-year-old.
A: It was. I'm just really figuring everything out. I'm still thinking about it, I still go back and read some of the articles, especially when I was doing the book, I went to the library, I had to pull up every week's game and the grading controversy.
I guess I hadn't really touched on that in what, 16, 17, 18 years. I'm old enough to read and have the time to really figure out what actually went on.
Q: How did you teammates react?
A: Out of the whole ordeal, I never heard a negative word about it. That's the thing about it. Because my teammates, they know me. They sat in classes every day with me, some from kindergarten. They know that I'm a straight A and B student.
At first, they weren't saying my name. Everybody was like, 'Dang, who is it?' We went up to this little meeting they were having and it leaked out that it was me. After the meeting, one of my friends came up to me and said, 'Man, we're all right. I thought they were really talking about something. We know you haven't failed a class.'
That's what I was really afraid of, especially the next day at school. I was like, `Golly, what have I done?' Not only my teammates, but I'm talking about an entire school. I'm walking down the hall and I'm wondering what people are thinking about me. What are they saying? Are they thinking I'm dumb?
Then you've got to go through the opponents and hear some of the stuff they're saying during the course of the game.
Q: Were there any signs in the stands?
A: Oh, yeah, I saw it all. Some fans during the Marshall game, their fans were tough. We played them at Floyd Casey Stadium. We came from up underneath on their side. I'm always the last one out of the locker room. I'm like, everyone, Come on.'
That was my way of letting my teammates know that, 'Hey, no matter what goes on during the course of a game, I've got your back. Whatever happens, I'm going to fix it.'
It was like everyone was just waiting for me. I heard nothing when I was coming up. When they saw my jersey, the number two, everyone went crazy. They were cursing me out and calling me all kinds of things. They were real tough.
Q: Did they call you dumb?
A: Dumb. Every profanity, they called me everything. I was like, 'Man, these are grown men and I'm a kid.' I kind of turned around and looked. It was tough.''
Q: Did that make winning feel even better?
A: It did. We had the utmost respect for Marshall after that game, Odell Beckham especially. He was a man compared to us. It was like he was a man playing with little boys. It was unreal.
Q: How did the robberies start? I have read old accounts where you guys said it started as a joke?
A: Pretty much. It was just doing boy things. Boys in particular, you're going to do some things. Some get caught, some don't. We just happened to be in the group that got caught.
We were just out doing it for the kicks. It wasn't meant to cause any harm to anyone at all.
Q: How did you get into it?
A: Derric actually heard. His cousin was doing it and telling him how easy it was. Then Derric mentioned it to this other guy, who was like a manager at Taco Bueno. He told us, 'Y'all just come in and I'll give you the money; I'll give you a cut.'
After that, it kind of had that snowball effect.
Q: Did all the other guys start before you and Derric?
A: I actually did the calculation. We did it for like 33 days before we got caught, Derric and I. 33 days from our first one to our last one. When I went, it was just Derric and I. He branched off with some other guys a couple of times, but for the most part it was just Derric and I.
Q: Do you remember the girl before the counter at the first Video Exchange? What happened?
A: I think she said she didn't have Coming to America. And that's when Derric told her, `Just give us the money then.' I just had the gun.
Q: What kind?
A: It was just a .22. It was just for show. It was just full out show and that was it. It was on safety. I don't even know if it had bullets in it. It was never going to be used.
Q: I suppose a psychiatrist might wonder if you started doing this out of anger from the grade situation.
A: That's what I've heard, but it had nothing to do with that. I was so over that. That was so far removed from my mind. I just got caught up in some peer pressure. That was just one of the bad choices that I made.
Q: I read where some of your teachers couldn't believe you had done it, speculating you got pulled into it.
A: I guess you could say that. I wasn't just pulled into it like 'Come on, come on.'
It was nothing like that. I guess it was kind of mutual between Derric and I because we were so close. It was like, 'Hey, whatever, I'm down with you for whatever because I know you're down with me.' It was just something where we both should have thought about.
Q: What were you spending the money on?
A: We were just blowing it, going to Six Flags, Wet and Wild. Friends, girlfriends, having fun.
Q: Some were doing it for the prom?
A: Yeah, they were doing it for prom and clothes. Derric and I pretty much had everything. We had the clothes. We had just about everything. We were just doing it for the kicks.
Q: I'm guessing you parents didn't know what was going on?
A: That was the hardest part for me was just facing my parents, knowing the embarrassment that I caused them, how they would stick their neck out for me and how I would do something like that. That was the hardest part was for me to face my parents.
Q: Did they come and get your out of jail?
A: Actually, my lawyer came and got Derric and I from jail. It wasn't really a whole lot said. We were a close family. Nine times out of ten, they already knew it. They saw my face when I walked through the door. There wasn't a whole lot said. They gave me a hug and told me, 'We're going to be all right. It's just something we have to go through.'
Q: Were you surprised by the sentencing?
A: We didn't. I didn't know anyone who had gone to prison. Not one person, to my knowledge. My train of thought was, 'We bonded out,' I'm thinking it's over. Hey, I'm just supposed to go to Houston and go play football. That's the way I thought. I didn't know the process of going through preliminary hearings and grand juries and all that stuff. I had no earthly idea about all of that.
Q: Was your attorney Mr. West?
A: Yes. He was disappointed. He represented me through the grade controversy. We developed a relationship, but he wasn't just a lawyer. He was a family friend, as well.
Very disappointed that I got myself into it. We thought it was going to be OK. We didn't think it was going to be that bad. Once he found out who the judge was going to be, he said don't worry about it; it's going to be all right. He actually knew Judge Kendall. They go a long ways back.
But for whatever reason, we got the stiff sentences.
Q: Did you write Judge Kendall from prison?
A: I did one time. I wrote him the first letter and it took a while, but someone from his office did write back. It wasn't really in response to my letter, it was kind of letting me know I got it.
In the first letter, I was asking him for a time cut. He didn't mention anything about the time cut. But he did do his part on the time cut. He got all the signatures; he got everything. I just found this out while I was writing the book: My lawyer actually told me everything was ready to go for the time cut, and then Governor Richards wouldn't do it.
Q: The judge said he was making an example, to use you guys as a deterrent for others. Did you get anything from the prison sentence?
A: Not really. Because I didn't need that. Like I say, the embarrassment that I caused to myself, my family, my church family, my coaches, the university of Houston, that was enough for me. That literally did nothing for me just to go . ... I didn't need to be rehabilitated because I was aware of my mistake and I knew I wouldn't ever do anything like that again.
That was just four years I kind of just wasted.
Q: Anything bad happen to you in prison?
A: Nothing bad. Everyone knew who I was before I got down there. When people see you in the newspaper or on TV, they tend to think they know you. Everyone thought they already knew me, like I was their homeboy.
Nobody ever really messed with me. A lot of people that I had been seeing out of our neighborhood, that's where they were. But I had no earthly idea. Dang, so that's where you've been.
It's just the way you carry yourself. I was just me. I've always kept to myself. Nobody ever really bothered me.
Q: Did having a prison record make it difficult when you got out of jail?
A: It was tough at one point. I'm sure it still is for a lot of guys now. It was always that one thing. You'd be qualified for a job and when they say 'OK, we're going to do a background check.' You're like, 'Oh, man.'
On some applications they'll ask, have you ever been convicted of a felony. You'll check yes and they wouldn't call you. You go back to the same job two weeks later and check no and they'll call you the same day. It's just little games like that.
It's just like one hurdle after another.
Q: So I guess you were in prison when you found out the state title had been stripped. How did you find out?
A: It was either the news or the radio. A couple of the other guys I was locked up with, I guess they saw it or heard it and mentioned it to me.
I didn't see how they could do that. Because the game is over. It's on film. I guess it was just for paper.
Q: When you were in prison, did you keep up with the other Carter guys?
A: Oh, yeah. Especially all those who went to school and played ball. I read the paper all the time, keeping up with everybody's stats.
Couple of them wrote me. Jessie, Marcus Grant, Clifton Abraham, Anthony Allen, Cedric Buckley.
Q: Derric?
A: We kept in contact. Derric is just to the point. He's like, 'Man, we're sitting up here wasting our life, rotting away.'
Q: Any bitterness between you guys?
A: No, no, no. I don't see a reason for me to be bitter towards anyone. Derric, he's just like anybody else. We were young. He basically got tricked by really his lawyer and my lawyer to tell on the other guys who were involved. I'm not bitter at all.
I never was bitter. People just make mistakes. I'm not perfect. He wasn't perfect.
Q: If there was a reunion, what would it be like; would you treat it as a state championship reunion?
A: Most definitely. Because that's what it would be. I look for that to happen. And then I'm sure people will be talking about certain games and what happened. Because after games, we used to have so much fun on the bus going back. Anthony Allen, he was one of the biggest comedians. It's like they'll watch each and every . ... Man, they would let you have it on the bus ride home.
We'd crack jokes all the way, from the time we got on the bus to we got to a point at the red light at the corner of the school, then we'd sing the school song. After we'd get off the bus, we would sit around and talk about it some more. Then everybody would disperse.
Q: I recall that before your sentencing, some of you held out hope for probation because you had no prior records.
A: That's the part that makes me say, 'Why did he do that?' I'm just basically going to say Derric and I, are lives were pretty much patterned for success. We had college coaches come and say, 'OK, you give them probation and I'll take them from here.' But he still gave us time. It was like we thought that was going to help us and he would show some form of leniency. But in my eyes, he didn't.
Q: Coach James seems to think you had a shot at the NFL.
A: Defininitely. I've watched the game of football. I watch cornerbacks. I haven't seen anybody play the game the way I played the game. Deion Sanders, he's the best cover guy probably that the game will ever see. But he wasn't a cornerback to me, he was a coverman, and I was your complete player.
I'd shut down one side of the field and if you ran to my side I would make that play, as well.
Q: Do you have to keep yourself from thinking what might have been?
A: Not really. I heard enough people say it. I don't have to just think about it a whole lot. But like I say, if I could be sitting at the barber shop or working out at the gym and people would be talking about high school football and the good players and brought up my name, I never have to pat my own self on the back.
