Judson coach, now Texas High School Association executive director
Q: I wanted to talk about the '88 state championship game, particularly what you thought about the Carter talent level?
A: There's no doubt they had a great ballclub. We were very young that year. I think we had six sophomores starting for us.
But we really had played well throughout the playoffs. I think we had like nine shutouts that year.
But we had not seen anybody throughout the playoffs with the talent level Carter had that year. The thing that stands out to me most about that ballclub was their defense. They just had kids who could run like crazy.
Of course, Jessie Armstead was kind of the bell cow of that group, but they had several Division I players. That really stood out, not to say that their offense didn't stand out as well.
Q: You and your players had said all week, and even after the game, that you weren't interested in the grading controversy. Afterward, your comments were that Carter deserved it from a football standpoint.
A: I've talked to Coach James several times about that. We felt like they won it on the field. That really, when it all came down to it, that never could be taken away from them. That's something that we all knew. They were the state championship that year.
I respect Coach James a great deal. He does a lot for kids and was in coaching for the right reasons.
Q: I wonder whether, from a distance, you kept up with the robberies and the trials.
A: I did a little bit. I just hated it that they just made some bad choices, obviously, and got themselves in a bind.
I really don't know how that has played out, to tell you the truth.
Q: A lot of those guys are pretty composed about it, but some have bitterness that they spent so much time in prison. But one of the players, P.K. Williams, says he is glad he went to prison and is a youth minister now.
A: Is that right? That's a great story.
Q: Were you surprised by the punishments. I would imagine you had some players over the years get into trouble.
A: I was, but at the same time I knew that I didn't know the whole story. But I was surprised that it was so harsh. I know at the time, I just felt so much for those kids, going to prison.
Just knowing that they're just out of high school. They made some really bad choices. That's one of the things we used to talk about all the time with our kids. At that time in their lives, the choices they make at those times, from the time they're 16 to the time that they're 25 or so, they're making some of the most critical choices that can really impact and change their lives forever.
I always thought about that because we used to talk to our kids about that all the time.
Everything from who you marry to the type of things you can get into in your youth, you can make just stupid choices. We had always talked about those things with our kids and get them to understand how critical those things were. So that stood out in my mind. Really bothered me.
Q: The trophy; from my understanding, Judson told the UIL you wouldn't accept it after Carter gave it back.
A: They talked about the gold medals and all those things. We didn't go through all that with the UIL. Really, both trophies look the same. It was just a matter of we felt like they won the game on the field and that's the way we would leave it.
We didn't want to make a big deal out of it. But at the same time, it was one of those things, something that was just done. The game had been played and Carter had won it and had played admirably in their win, with a lot of class. We felt like it was their championship to keep.
Q: So the UIL did actually contact you?
A: Well, they just contacted us and told us the game was going to be forfeited and that we would be listed as the state champion for 1988 with an asterisk.
Q: So they didn't discuss sending the trophy to you?
A: I remember there was some talk about it, but nothing really came of it as far as both trophies were concerned. Really, both trophies are the same. It's just a matter of what was written on them.
I think the school changed that one to read state champion. But it really wasn't a big deal as far as a ceremonial thing or anything, like we had a banquet.
One of the things that sometimes bothers me about it, those kids at Judson, they accomplished a lot. They were a great bunch of kids who played really hard and were very talented. And were very young and had an amazing year.
They were a great football team, but they weren't as good as Carter on that day. And that was kind of the way we approached it with the kids. And I think the kids felt good about it.
Q: So to your knowledge, the trophy that was in Judson's trophy case was altered, so there wasn't a tradeout?
A: Right, to my knowledge.
Q: So were you aware that the trophy was taken from Carter and sent to the UIL?
A: I remember hearing some things about that and I remember reading a bit about it, but I was not involved in any discussion about that or any exchange of anything.
Q: I wonder if it would surprise you to find out that according to Dr. Farney, once Carter sent the trophy back, it just kind of sat around in the UIL offices for quite a while. They moved offices in 1998 and ever since then the trophy's gone missing.
A: (chuckling) Is that right? They probably used it again. They're all the same.
Every one of them look the same. They probably just used it the next year. Every one that we got at Judson, all six, all look exactly the same. And we've had three runner up trophies and they all look exactly the same.
Q: Do you think it is somwhat fitting that the trophy is floating in Neverland?)
A: (chuckling). Yeah. If I was to guess, I would guess that the plate on it was changed and it was used again, if I was a betting man.
